House Rules Announcements

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Zerd
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Re: House Rules Announcements

Post by Zerd » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:47 pm

Read the Words
People are pissed off. And as I said before, if we were actually kept in the loop and made aware that this is being discussed there might be less of a tone to the way people are stating things. Not to mention when it was just tossed off to the side like it did not mean a thing. So yes when players are given the impression that the people who are supposed to be looking out for the players don’t care you get threads like this. One Admin, well there has been plenty of opportunity to fix that but again, sandbox and all that.
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Post by Prophet » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:50 pm

LarryG wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:40 pm Read the words: Was not intended to.

That does not mean that discussions are not now happening.
So, you're saying a discussion ABOUT WW5, doesn't belong in the WW5 discussion area, but rather, in the off-topic area?
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Post by Trish » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:02 am

It's been a day, give or take (actually give, cause this happened while I was at work yesterday) and that's plenty of time for someone to do something - like move the discussion to somewhere less noticeable in hopes it'd be forgotten (boy that backfired!) or maybe the wiser choice - respond to it in a fashion that wasn't essentially telling players that no one cares about their opinions unless they're one of the ones welcome in the Admin's sandbox. But instead, the voices they tried to silence have gotten louder, and people are openly wondering about retaliation (no surprise since they did it to one of their own Staffers!) and continuing to question the rule.

One day is plenty of time for a discussion and a reply. But like most things here, it'll either be ignored til all the players (but the ones they like) are gone (possibly banned for things like internet catfishing!) or have given up.

Storytelling really should be STs working with players, not against them, but it seems in all the Staff changes made here, the Admin and her team has totally lost sight of that. Or the golden rule of STing and playing: TO HAVE FUN. Not to red tape the game to the point of strangulation. No one has to find more requests and bluebooks fun - not the players surely they've voiced this - I doubt the STs who will actually be the ones responding to these additional requests will find them fun either. Perhaps just the Admin and her husband? I suppose it's one way to make a sandbox yours. Make it hard as hell for anyone not your bestie or kissing your ass to play in it.
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Post by taurus0510 » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:16 am

Trish wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:02 am Perhaps just the Admin and her husband? I suppose it's one way to make a sandbox yours. Make it hard as hell for anyone not your bestie or kissing your ass to play in it.
I honestly couldn't really care less one way or another about the ruling, I'll go with the flow with whatever is decided and adapt, but the part that I quoted above, that part does makes me put a comment here, is not my place to be the one telling this but i'm going to do it anyway and say a few words.

Keep it civil and show some respect, there are better ways to express yourself. You might have grievances but that doesn't mean you can go around being that...I don't know, antagonistic I think, can't find the proper word for it, might not be using the correct one. I acknoledge that you don't like the ruling and you made a pretty good case and expressed it really nicely at least in my opinion in the rest of the post, but that ending, I got to say you went to far. That's all
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Post by Kimura » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:42 am

Trish wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:02 am Perhaps just the Admin and her husband? I suppose it's one way to make a sandbox yours. Make it hard as hell for anyone not your bestie or kissing your ass to play in it.
Regardless of how we might disagree on the rule in question and any valid point you may have this line makes your entire argument seem incredibly personal and quite frankly petty.


Just another observation having gone through this whole thread it seems to me most of the hurt feelings expressed here are less about this ruling and the state of the game as a whole. Valid complaints many of which I agree with. The setting as a whole does seem rushed, and if I am honest seems like everything but the embassy has been largely forgotten or ignored. This may well be an issue with the incredible rte of ST turnover over the last year. Another issue which may contribute to this ruling is the insane amount of XP most characters now have, having 40 creation XP is ludicrous. Of course people (mages especially) are over powered!

If I am brutally honest, I am looking forward to a reset.... Hopefully when that happens we (both the staff and the players) can carry over many of the things we learned in this game
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Post by PapaSpit » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:02 am

I think that a reset is actually highly called for actually. Although Becca has said many a time that there wont be a reset. But I really do think it would be for the best even more so now. There are just so many plots that have been dropped at this point that people are invested in and npcs the staff know nothing about. In addition it would allow a chance to create a setting that allows for a middle ground from the cross over is allowed but diffacult to do mindset from ww4 and then everyone is crossed over all the time mindset that is ww5. Not to mention that the Embassary has major IC issues that need to be adressed ic but would bring up long gone plots and bitter memories. I feel like it is something that should be Legitmately discussed openly between the players and the current or future staff.
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Post by PapaSpit » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:22 am

And well having 40 build xp may seem crazy, but it didnt start out that way. Its supposed to be an xp floor to keep new characters coming in around the same xp pointwise as older characters. I do think its better then the old Xp ceiling as you could never reach the ceiling you would just never be able to catch up.
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Post by Kimura » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:26 am

PapaSpit wrote: Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:22 am And well having 40 build xp may seem crazy, but it didnt start out that way. Its supposed to be an xp floor to keep new characters coming in around the same xp pointwise as older characters. I do think its better then the old Xp ceiling as you could never reach the ceiling you would just never be able to catch up.
Yeah the scary thing is there are probably quite a few characters running around with 60Xp or more. Thats probably equivalent to end game XP levels in previous versions of wanton using 1st edition.
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Post by venaat » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:08 am

The ruling as many players have stated was the match to the tinderbox. Do we need a reset that would be dependent upon the future direction that the game winds up going in.I for one can say with enough storyline and dedication that a high powered game can be a highly rewarding experience for players and STs alike. But it requires ALOT of attention and love to pull off. It requires staff to take existing storyline outlines and put a narrative spin that's thier own but keeps to the overall spirit of the storyline and to do that while they're writing thier own. It requires a good rapport between players and staff not nessecarilly freindship but a solid understanding of what each party is hoping for and looking to see in the future then tailoring from there.

It also needs a solid explination on the IC level from npc leaders about why the city exists in the state its in and just why it's important to keep to the peace.It also needs more active and cunning enemies and less here we are for the meat grinder types. Just as the four are working together so too would some of thier opposition since it'd makes sense from a survival standpoint. Meanwhile there are alot of issues that have thus far been overlooked. Infrastructure just how is the supers of the city handling this? How are they handling the media.Why is the government not investigating the constant stream of explosions fires in one case mass suicide. How are they keeping the people from breaking into a blind panic from the blanket of fear that should be hanging over the city? How are the PCs for that matter? At this point from what has happened and not been prevented the city of weird should be in a state akin to Arkham City.

We need stuff like this figured out and given life and story to continue to drive the game forward and get the players vested again. Otherwise yes the only other option is a reset as much as it pains me to say it because I'm just starting to enjoy my mage which was something I'd been trying to find for thirteen months in the mage venue. It's obvious from looking over this thread and reading the context over the content that the majority have been feeling disenfranchised and ttossed to the wayside for some while. So this should probably be paid some attention to and more constructive input added on what we'd like to see.
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Post by Ebram » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:20 am

Prophet wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:50 pm
LarryG wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:40 pm Read the words: Was not intended to.

That does not mean that discussions are not now happening.
So, you're saying a discussion ABOUT WW5, doesn't belong in the WW5 discussion area, but rather, in the off-topic area?
No, but where the rule was announced was not the proper place for a convconversation start on it, either. What I said was that simply because it was not intended to start a conversation or discussion on this, does not mean that one had not started because of it.
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Post by GarethTheLoud » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:50 am

Just some observations from someone NOT on staff: This thread is at that point where it could be a very valuable way to make a course correction as a community, or turn into a negative experience for all of us - players and staff. Here are my observations broken out-

1) The tone of this thread is starting to death spiral - folks are starting to make it personal, but I think the points on the ruling are now out there and no one is really disagreeing with those points in their follow-on posts here. To recap:
-This ruling will not solve any real power problems, will create more tedium for everyone, and will generally make the game un-fun.
-This rule was a straw which broke the camels back for many people for many reasons
-Having the rule appear out of nowhere was a real blow to the objective of transparency and people would like to press "undo" on this and if there is a problem
with power levels, work as a community towards a solution

2) Some folks see the staff as antagonistic to the player base and particularly took the movement of this to "off topic" as a message that this meant staff wanted to ignore you. Even if true, I do not think hammering that point will be productive. Either it was true and you called them out on it, or this seemed like the right place at the time it was moved and clearly it was not.

3) A few new issues not related to the main topic of the new rule are emerging and may be worth spinning off into new threads:
-Power levels in general, but mage especially being too high (I like this topic in particular as I love mage, but think it was never meant for crossover and that is part of what is breaking it)
-Plot - we are stuck in plot limbo. What is still alive? What is not? Where should we be interacting?
-Setting - Since no one who made it is still on staff (that I know of), this lost flavor and momentum. The embassy in particular is not relevant to the setting/plot it seems. (I also like this topic as it relates to what I see as one of the bigger problems - crossover - i.e. the embassy - is not helping things in terms of staff, NPCs, plot, and power levels.)

4) Staff turnover is kicking everyone's butt. Not sure if anger at staff in this thread is going to help maintain the staff we have.
- The story master/narrator experiment for WW5 probably needs a 2nd look. Seems like it is not working.


As much as it can be valuable to vent, I expect you are not going to get more mileage from beating some points into the ground. Some of the other posts seem to be moving towards whole new discussions. Maybe we can start moving some of the spin off topics to the WW5 forums ourselves and start discussions on how to improve things. I can see new threads on how to get plot going, how to make the setting work better, fix balance across or within splats, how to recruit and retain staff, etc.

Just some thoughts, take them or leave them.
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Post by venaat » Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:10 am

Here's my suggestion a week of sitdowns in an open room with screencaps between players and staff the screencaps get posted for posterity and left up for the same reason. This opens the air between players and staff so both side know what the others about. Farther this also gives everyone equal time to get thier grievances heard. And staff be warned at least on my end the list is at least ten issues I have with the current state of things I've just kept quiet because my attention has been focused on rl first.

That said the purpose behind the meetings and posted screencaps is to A. Make certain that there's an equal understanding between staff and players. B. Show transparency between staff and players rather than a bunch of private answers via feedback requests. C.A glimpse into the future of this iteration and the changes and fixes that it will require as it runs.And D. An actual timeline as to just how much longer we players have to wait for something to happen Cause I'm fairly certain I'm not the only person feeling like Mister Incredible when he looked at the neighbor boy staring at him , asked him what he was waiting for and the kid replied "I don't know something Awesome! " and only having the reply of. "Me too kid. Me too."
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Post by Vannex » Fri Mar 09, 2018 8:18 am

  • 1: Starting immediately, the following rules will be in effect for all supernatural effects (spells, contracts, rites, rituals, etc.) with extended duration.
Assuming this also applies to NPC effects as well with the statement "all supernatural effects" broad scope should also include numina and influences, including that which forms pack bonds as well. All rituals that form a cabal. All rituals that maintain the bulwark, and the very Embassy itself as described. Rituals that bond one to their familiar. As written All NPC rituals in PRP and ST run supernatural effects. This could use clarification.
  • 2: Any effect with an intended duration greater than one Chapter (1 week) must be submitted via the Request system for review by a Narrator or STM prior to being used.
As written all lasting effects, including healing and damage have a duration greater than a chapter, and if applied will not be able to be performed without a request, unless there are blanket provisions are made, and pre- approved of potential abilities beyond original approval of the supernatural power, will not be available. The Kiss for a kindred for exampel is a supernatural effect that does have effects that can last well over one week. Requests thus should be made for any kindred before feeding from a live target who is going to survive to endure it.
  • 3: Any effect with an intended duration greater than one Story (1 month) must be submitted via the Request system as for those in excess of one Chapter, and must also include a short scene or bluebook justification (this is your ritual, extended casting, etc.)
"Behold the ritual of casting by specific year long by chart, cast instant spell... Chronicle is not mentioned anywhere on this chart multiple locations." *twitches nose while focusing the imago* "Done." *Blows nose on a tissue*
Also in some cases the ritual of extending the blood bond and supernatural addiction of ghouls to their kindred full ritual may make for some very graphic reading. Enjoy.
  • 4: The longest any effect which is not permanent (lasting, indefinite duration, etc) may last is one Chronicle (3 months).

This can be interesting. though I not my preference in changes, I encourage a less dramatic story to explain this change IC in every venue for all applicable circumstances. Rather than pretending that it had always been so. Including the loss of the elegant thematic tradition of a "Year and a Day" as terms of a deal.
Making it clear that: "The longest any effect which is not permanent (lasting, indefinite duration, etc) may last is one Chronicle "
does not mean "(lasting, indefinite, etc)" equals "not permanent". And that the healing spell that is Lasting, and all healed wounds don't return at the end of 3 months because of magic reversed at the end of March, June, September and December.
  • 5: In addition, for bookkeeping reasons, all effects with a duration of one Chapter (week) will end at midnight on Saturday (server time), one Story will end at midnight on the last day of the month, and one Chronicle will end at midnight on the last day of the Quarter (Jan-March, April-June, July-Sept, Oct-Dec). Naturally, allowances may be made for specific scenes or storylines that extend beyond these limits.
I have mentioned that without the allowances mentioned, this makes some people excellent targets at 12:01am after a change of seasons. Before rituals can be restored. Allowances though vague may want to allow for redundant transitions. And allowing specific scenes that regularly don't happen at the end or beginning of the month for monthly refresh to carry results thoughout the month until the next scheduled meeting.
Seriously with the swarm of people putting in requests with their new earned XP at the beginning of the month, adding ALL extended spells at the same time really best workload allocation for swift approvals? Maybe it is. I don't know if this is the best way to streamline, but I would guess not.
  • A: The ruling has been posted in the House rules thread for reference.
Thankyou staff for enduring a trying adjustment process, and volunteering to attempt to make this game work well.
However I don't believe this was quite as well prepared and quite ready for prime time, as many of people who like to be here are very comfortable with. Rushing this into the Announcements and later shoving it into house rule announcements does not demonstrate well prepared continuity, and perhaps a rush to ruling that may not have been thoroughly reviewed and consulted. Nobody is expecting perfection. Flexibility to improve, and acceptance of change can be difficult and sometimes a pain, some may not want to go though. Cost and benefit of the changes can be hard to determine at first.
Goodluck on making things work.
Last edited by Vannex on Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zerd
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Post by Zerd » Fri Mar 09, 2018 10:06 am

Shouldn't this be one of those things that Players have a say in. After all it effects every aspect of the game, not just mage. Making decisions like this without speaking with the player base is just piss poor judgment and lack of respect to everyone.
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Post by venaat » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:50 am

And now we should give time for a response from staff.
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