House Rules Announcements

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venaat
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Re: House Rules Announcements

Post by venaat » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:22 am

Generally speaking long lasting spells were rolled recorded then sent for staff so they had records. They didn't need approval to cast and this was acceptable by staff for over a year. I believe the conflagration is over the fact that this is yet another example of players feeling unfairly targeted and being forced into asking for permission to cross the street every single time they turn around. This is a rule that had it been installed a year ago when the chat opened would have been accepted. Would it have been grumbled about?Absolutely.But back then there was one thing the chat had that it doesn't now.

What was it the chat had a year ago that it doesn't now? Staff. To put it frankly the more things the current staff demands needs permission be given before its given the go ahead the slower response times will be.How do I know this? Because I worked on staff for four months running storyline , developing storylines ,and responding to requests.I answered on average over a hundred a week, and devloped quite a few scenes pertaining to them during that time. Am I happy with the ruling? Absolutely not, I believe it will put undue stress on players and staffand take time from the most important thing they should be doing. Making scenes happen; Be it random, planned, be it in response to player requests. Make us players feel like we're part of something make the setting feel vibrant and tangible instead of trying to control every facet of the game till it bottlenecks.


Above all else find out what the players want. Because I can guarantee what the players want is not what YOU think it is. The constantly changing rules. The need for every facet of the game to be poured over by two to three people is unhealthy ,and unconducive to a Fun, and Thriving chat . It needs to grow and expand; it needs to have things done from the staff end that I haven't seen happen here. This iteration of the chat is supposed to last four years. It's been one and anyone who's paying attention can see this is not going well at all.

The playerbase is attention starved at this point. And there is a sizable percentage that are starting to get the perception that they're purposely getting pushed to the curb. All I'm saying is in the future before just making up rules as you go along 1. Meet with the players ask them what they want to see. 2. Make rulings that don't slow down an already slow system that hurts both staff and player faith and patience faster than walking in and saying roll init.
Remember a Player is NOT their Character.
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Post by Falco1029 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:32 am

Kimura wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:58 am Seems like I am in the minority here especially since I also have a mage but, I don't really have an issue with this. Infact giving how complex mage is and the likely hood of abuse/error in computing spells especially prolonged or combination spells I am kind of surprised there is so much push back. I have never waited more than a couple days for any request (granted I also don't usually have more than one in at a time which may have something to do with it.) But it seems to me that if you are that worried about not getting a timely return on them perhaps you should put them in a week in advance of when you plan to cast your spells. As for indefinite spells, the rules were written with TT in mind not an ongoing 24/7 chat regardless of length something like that should have some type of approval or oversight IMO.

Personaly if we are going to make mage house rules I would rather see a set in stone rule regarding marathon ritual casting.

Anyway, thats my 2 cents. Just trying to interject a bit of positivity into this thread.
Two things:
1) A lot of people seem to be missing that this isnt a Mage only thing. Theres a fair number of Vamp powers that suddenly have a ton of bluebooks attached and a limited duration, and werewolves have a bunch of pack rites thatll have the same issue. Theres even a few changeling contracts too. And again, unlike mages they cant just take a penalty and some reach to go indefinite, theyre stuck with a bunch of bureaucratic busywork for no good reason.
2) Itd be one thing if the only change was "please submit long term powers to be seen". Thatd still be a little more work but no huge deal, but no, we got "submit everything of week+ duration, make abunch of boring ritual bluebooks for no good reason, and also do it at least every 3 months because for some reason year duration is bad but indefinite isnt". It's the combination thats so grating.
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Post by Ebram » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:09 am

I would also argue, from the mage stand point, that you them need to revamp the chart. There is no three month line for how many dice you are penalized. So at that point, you are either limiting yourself to month long casts, poor going indefinite, as taking the negative for a year long cast to just have your magic break apart in a quarter of the allied time for the roll doesn't make sense.
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Post by PapaSpit » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:39 am

Yeah this ruling is very very bad for all the reasons already stated. plus I think it's funny. As obviously something happened recently to make like a majority of staff leave all at once and all we get is a notice that they left and a 'thank you' for putting up with it. There is a fundamental problem although i cant exactly define what that is at the moment with this iteration of wanton wicked and I feel this type of ruling hits kinda close toward what it might be.

Someone mentioned making the seting feel tangiable and alive. Well I don't feel like that was ever the case as the creation of the wanton wicked five setting was clearly rushed or just straight out underdevloped from the get go. Lack of notes from the starting staff likely didnt help the situation though. The two most important things that the staff should be working on instead of making more rule changes is figuring out where the old plots are going, how to breath life into this empty setting and fixing the rest of the wiki if its not already been made readable. Walls of clumped text are not good for people to read the setting we do have.

but just my two cents.
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Post by Hamster » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:05 pm

So, first off, yeah, I quit, so some people might view my words as meaningless, but at the end of the day, I'm going to say my piece here, and hope that staff listen to me. Because well, I want this to be a place for my friends to enjoy themselves, even if it's no longer a place for me.

That said, first off, this rule call, it's not something that makes a lot of sense, from a mechanical standpoint, it seems like it's built to limit mage buffs, which, yes got a little crazy when I was on staff, I can only imagine they got worse as XP went up. But, that is the literal cost of having mage in a game. Which was stated many times. By many folks, both on and off staff. This rule unfairly limits other splats who are already weaker than mage. For no real good reason. Themewise? It makes about as much sense as a dancing platypus in a disco outfit.

Second off, this isn't really how you get a site going, the more you limit players, and limit their creativity, the more your just pulling away from the core ideas of a game like this, this isn't a video game, this isn't some company, this is a TT converted to a chat, and at the core of TT, is the dynamic relationship of the players and the DM, notice I said AND, not VS, the DMs job, or in this case the STs, is to create a world for the players to explore, interact and enjoy, show them challenges, but not really meant to harm them. One of the things I've seen for the longest time on this chat, is the idea that based on real life, or certain norms of the book, somethings are almost outright banned. This doesn't jive with that idea of working with the players, and also, something that is to be kept in mind, each player character is the hero of their OWN STORY, this is something to be reminded of players and STs alike, each players story is important, and is to be kept in mind, just because your story is important doesn't mean someone elses isn't also important.

Honestly, rules like this are just building more walls, and frankly, that isn't what's needed, what's needed is that the rooms that already have walls in them be filled. That the environment is engaging and fun. But that's just my two cents, take it or leave it, that's up to you, though, I do hope that some of what I said at least sparks some of that hope I brought to the team, that desire to do better. Thank you for reading what I have to say.
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Post by connie » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:35 pm

As a person who has pretty much only been a player and not an ST (like, I did a short stint as a narrator, AST, or something on WanWic looong ago), I can only say that the more requesting and boring busywork I have to do, the more tempted I am to go play some other more-fun/less-work game. I think there's been a big thing where folks in TT-Chats get really into the systems and mechanics and process to not even ask what kind of stories they're telling with these systems, mechanics, and processes.

It's just more building processes, making more paperwork. Paperwork that's just going to go out the window when a new wave of staff comes in and decides they don't wanna go with that.

I recently stopped playing because this game started feeling like work, like I was clocking in every night to sit around and watch nothing happen because no one had any reason to talk to the Seneschal more than one or two nights a week, because nothing was happening anywhere worth talking to the Seneschal or Prince about. Guess everyone was just busy with more paperwork, I dunno.

I know I desanc'd my characters and thus probably have no real say. And I also know this whole thread got chucked into the "Off-Topic" forum, which is apparently "the appropriate forum for discussion", right next to meme posts, absence notices and random news stories. Apparently, "WW5 Discussion" is not the forum for discussion about WW5. That's the madness this site has come to.
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Post by BloodyQuill » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:46 pm

Hey folks it's been a while. So I've been reading this and mostly avoiding Wanton and as others have said that this sort of behavior is the tip of the iceberg as to why I stepped away.

Anyways most of the posts here don't actually tackle what I think the issue is with the ruling. The current rule doesn't solve the core problem which let's be frank is mages. They're too danged strong! This current actually makes things worse as far as overall power and here's why: Mages now no longer can spend their extra dice to make spells last a year. Guess where those dice are going now? More potency!

So whats the solution? Well it seems to me that 1e actually had it solved to an extent. The old Spell Tolerance rules seem like a good fix especially with a new coat of pain. Here's something that might work.

New Mechanic: Spell Tolerance
Magic from the Supernal Realms have a quirk about them. When too many overlapping Imago's interact closely a sort of mystical interference begins to occur. Most people don't notice it on a conscious level but it's there.

Any individual can manage to ignore a number of mage spells on their pattern equal to their natural unmodified Stamina Score. Anyone is under the influence of more than this number of spells gains the Overburdened Condition (Persistant).

New Condition: Overburdened
You've been the target of too much magic and it's beginning to effect your daily life. You suffer a -1 penalty to all rolls that require concentration which includes spell casting, this penalty increases by 1 for each additional spell on your pattern beyond your limit.

Furthermore the Nimbus from the most powerful spell effecting your pattern starts bleeding into your life as though you had an intimate connection.
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Post by Zerd » Wed Mar 07, 2018 4:15 pm

This ruling was just the straw, there have been way too many people walking away, avoiding, and just plain throwing up the middle finger and looking for an excuse. This rule is crap everyone sees it and we all have one issue are another with it.

Sphere balance isn’t even the real issue here. The problem is when you think you’re above it all, just because you’ve been given a pretty new color to your log-in. When people are showing elitist behaviors, are when they are literally laughing at screwing over players because they don’t like them. When your little click chases off people they just don’t like so that they can have it all and attempt to force everyone to do what they want. When all these people acutely give a damn about is their own little sandbox and the rest of the player base can just live with it are screw off.

Speaking of transparency and the other many many things that are just plain wrong here. Why is there no Staff transparency? Why is there no “Hey guys, we are working on this this and this project. Feed back is welcome.”

At this point I’m just waiting for retaliation directed towards all the people on this thread who are just feed up with it, or who have voice their feelings of things just being unfair. And if I get a PPS warning for expressing this then so be it. It won’t be the first time that’s been used against me for no good reason.
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Post by Falco1029 » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:20 pm

BloodyQuill wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:46 pm Hey folks it's been a while. So I've been reading this and mostly avoiding Wanton and as others have said that this sort of behavior is the tip of the iceberg as to why I stepped away.

Anyways most of the posts here don't actually tackle what I think the issue is with the ruling. The current rule doesn't solve the core problem which let's be frank is mages. They're too danged strong! This current actually makes things worse as far as overall power and here's why: Mages now no longer can spend their extra dice to make spells last a year. Guess where those dice are going now? More potency!

So whats the solution? Well it seems to me that 1e actually had it solved to an extent. The old Spell Tolerance rules seem like a good fix especially with a new coat of pain. Here's something that might work.

New Mechanic: Spell Tolerance
Magic from the Supernal Realms have a quirk about them. When too many overlapping Imago's interact closely a sort of mystical interference begins to occur. Most people don't notice it on a conscious level but it's there.

Any individual can manage to ignore a number of mage spells on their pattern equal to their natural unmodified Stamina Score. Anyone is under the influence of more than this number of spells gains the Overburdened Condition (Persistant).

New Condition: Overburdened
You've been the target of too much magic and it's beginning to effect your daily life. You suffer a -1 penalty to all rolls that require concentration which includes spell casting, this penalty increases by 1 for each additional spell on your pattern beyond your limit.

Furthermore the Nimbus from the most powerful spell effecting your pattern starts bleeding into your life as though you had an intimate connection.
Spell Tolerance is the route I was planning to propose too, though I'd note that I think using Stamina's likely not a good idea, as that oddly favors physical characters for something non-physical. I'd suggest using Supernatural Tolerance (BP, PU, etc) as the basis (giving mortals 1 + banner-bearer or something like that). Even if we want to limit Mage's effect on other Venues too, there's no reason to arbitrarily redefine duration for everyone, nor to add a bunch of bluebooking to everything.
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Post by BloodyQuill » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:15 pm

Oh yeah I mean it was just a quick and dirty retooling on something I know curbed my rampant spell casting in 1e. My only real issue with using a Power Stat is that it makes it even more powerful and lets face most people are already sitting at 3+ now.

What about your lowest Resistance trait? We still use those to resist spells so why not for the 'magical interference'? That way mages need to diversify a little for cramming down Arcana and Gnosis for their primary XP purchases?
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Post by Prophet » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:23 pm

Just wondering how the admins see this whole discussion as 'Off-Topic'. And not relevant to the chat.
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Zerd
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Post by Zerd » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:29 pm

The fact that none of them have actually responded or said anything here shows how little people actually care
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Post by LarryG » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:35 pm

Zerd wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:29 pm The fact that none of them have actually responded or said anything here shows how little people actually care
There is one admin currently, she has been dealing with this since the moment it got posted, with people pinging her constantly on Discord about it and other issues. The STs have been discussing things as well, and have been letting people talk here, for like... a day. Not even that long. The staff that is currently with the site, are all either discussing these issues, or asleep. Not responding yet does not mean that they are not working on things.
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Post by Prophet » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:38 pm

LarryG wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:35 pm
Zerd wrote: Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:29 pm The fact that none of them have actually responded or said anything here shows how little people actually care
There is one admin currently, she has been dealing with this since the moment it got posted, with people pinging her constantly on Discord about it and other issues. The STs have been discussing things as well, and have been letting people talk here, for like... a day. Not even that long. The staff that is currently with the site, are all either discussing these issues, or asleep. Not responding yet does not mean that they are not working on things.
Just to share something Larry:
KotaR wrote: Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:44 pm While this was not intended to start a discussion, we have moved it here to the appropriate forum for discussion.

The ruling has been posted in the House rules thread for reference.
So, someone had enough time to move it off the discussion area, to a 'Off-Topic' forum. So, by doing that, it shows that this is not seen as important by that person, and has been moved away from discussions about the chat. When this whole discussion is 100% about the goings on on the chat.

Just food for thought.
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Post by LarryG » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:40 pm

Read the words: Was not intended to.

That does not mean that discussions are not now happening.
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