SoulGambit wrote:@ChrisF: My only concern is that being reactive will produce more work, grief, and retconing when it comes time for the hammer to fall.
@Conflict / Dramatic Decisions being the point. Houserules are geared towards enabling conflict.
@"Its only combat." Mage is better than the others and gets excponentially better the more mages you involve because of how buffs stack. That said, its more that Mages play a completely different game and can do things like murder entire venues without any defense or any recourse.
@Mage's ability to get information not being addressed. That is done, as needed, by addressing those spells individually via point 9. That *said*, mages should be above curve in that area. Its their thing.
@Other splats dispelling Mage spells should mean Mages can dispel. ... Mages already can. Not only can they dispel every other effect in the game, amd they can be immune to every other effect in the game (requiring clash of wills). This is to prevent permanent, unanswerable curses.
@Non-Twinked Spells. Mage is not built to easily be super effective on the fly without using Yantras (esp. Rotes). That said, in your example, the Mage would have +1 Potency free. Thats 1 die base, +3 with Willpower, for 4 dice. Thats a good chance for success without rotes.
@Arcana being more expensive. 4 exp for 2-3 *classifications* of powers. Mind 2 can replicate Obfuscate 1-4, Dominate 1-2 (and some of 4), and Majesty 1-3 for 8exp. Mage's issue is scope.
Going to go to an old anecdote about the Justice League. You see, Superman isn't the problem when creating challenges for the rest of the team. Ultimately Superman is just strong and fast and Invulnerable. The writer can just keep him busy or provide challenges that can't be punched. The issue is the Green Martian, who has super attributes and Telepathy and Phasing through things and shapeshifting and on and on. The Green Martian can solve almost any problem, and thats why the Green Martian needs to be disabled or have a headache almost every story.
Thanks for the in-depth reply.
1) Mages can target all three resistance attributes, so Im not too worried about Stamina being untargetable.
3) I feel like Mages should have a hard time affecting elders. It feels right that a BP6 elder be harder to affect just by being an elder. That said, its a minor point and I wouldnt be disappointed if it didnt happen.
6) Every day is much longer than you get in a tabletop environment. I feel pretty strongly on this one.
8) It is powerful, but its also a stopgap against spells we miss and permanent curses to make characters unplayable. I feel pretty strongly this one is a good idea as well.
Ok just to clarify the spell example I used above, was from an actual ic event, I was the target. They rolled a chance die (because I told them my resistance stat, not realizing that i shouldn't have told them until after the spell was done).It was not theory craft. I don't know exactly how many yantras they used, but the fact they were at a chance die with -6 dice penalty makes me think they didn't have enough.
You are correct that you can throw a WP into every spell, I personally don't do things like that, but I've seen players who throw WP into every attack roll, so I guess doing the same to magic makes sense. I still don't think its great RPing though since putting a WP into something should mean its really important, and every spell and every attack roll is probably not. That said you are correct that adding 3 dice can really help a struggling dice pool. SO can spending a WP to add 2 to withstand to stop a spell (in fact in that case the defenders WP actual costs -4 dice in potency).
As for your fear that Mages can destroy every venue, I think you are not aware that there is an entire venue that has a large degree of Mage protection. Changeling.
What do I mean by this?
Changelings can't be restrained. They can spend a point of glamour to escape any bond. Turn the air around them to steel or throw them in a ban as you mentioned, and that seems like a restraint to me, they spend a glamour they are free. Further, if they have access to a door they can pop into the hedge (in case you throw them somewhere else), and now their gone.
Well okay, so I wont' restrain changeling's I'll just turn them into a banana slug or suck out their brains, or curse them into a million pieces, but wait Changelings can spend WP to add/subtract their Clarity (that thing that normally starts at 7) to their resistance roll/withstand. So now instead of trying to get past a withstand of 3 or 4 its 10 or 11. I think even the most twinked out mages are not casting spells at potency 11 or 12 (I could be wrong, if so, please shoot me a message with how the heck you manage that since I always like to learn).
Okay so I can't target the changeling with magic because withstand and I can't restrain him and ignore his withstand because he can escape. That doesn't leave a Mage with many very magical options. I better hope that I got some good combat skills if I want to stop this changeling (just like everyone else).
Each splat has its own defenses and weakness.
The defensive benefits:
Vampire -> downgrade most damages and can heal fastish (some arcanas attack spell don't even effect them, such as the time one)
Werewolf -> heal very very fast, shapechange
Changeling -> ability to escape and protection from magic
Mage -> prevent being damaged (through defense/armor and/or limited immunity)
You said mages can counter anything, so tell me how does mage counter wolf healing?, how does he counter vampire downgrading (other then the obvious force mage with fireballs; i.e. the other 9 arcanas)? how does he he counter changeling magic defense?
Now lets put this in perspective of what other venues can do to "destroy other venues" as you put it.
Changeling 1 dot contract - Bite of the Wooden Fang 1 (1 xp) - in addition to adding +2 damage rating to the weapon for a scene, if you happen to be an ogre (or spend an extra 1 xp) you can get the extra that causes the Earthquake Tilt with a rating equal to her Wyrd.
So for 1-2xp a changeling for a scene can cause earthquake after earthquake for an entire scene (as well as do more dmg with their weapon). Your force mage is probably okay, but everyone else, probably not doing so hot with constant earthquakes, that seems venue slaying to me. (I should also mention that I don't believe there are mage spells in the book that increase a weapons damage rating, only spells to give dice tricks).
(yes mages can also cause earthquakes but they also have to worry about duration, potency, withstand, and of course paradox)
Werewolf - Gift of Elementals - Catastraphe + any of the others under the gift - (i'm a little fuzzy on werewolf xp costs, but I think this can be done for relatively low costs) lets The Uratha can call down cataclysmic levels of elemental
destruction. "the Influence is unleashed on a massive scale, affecting an area of a radius in miles equal to twice the Uratha’s Glory Renown. Even minor manifestations of elemental power can be catastrophic on this scale, from floods to out-of-control blaze." so assuming glory 1 that is a 2 mile radius of earthquakes, or floods, or firestorms, or hurricanes, etc.
Again the force mage is probably okay, but everyone else probably not doing so hot.
(yes mages can also cause disasters but good luck effecting 2 miles+, they also have to worry about duration, potency, withstand, and of course paradox)
My point is that there are lots of "broken" things out there. More so than any previous edition of WoD in my opinion. Mages might have more, because each arcana has its own "broken" spells, but honestly a mixed game of WoD game is a giant rock, paper, scissor, lizard , spock game. Nothing defends against eveything and nothing auto kills everything.
Mages as a whole might be able to defend against everything, in theory, but any individual mage probably has numerous weakness (which some types from other venues can exploit); and any autokill combo he has probably has numerous counters (but not necessary something everyone can counter, just some types of certain splats).