Page 1 of 2

Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 3:45 am
by Sciencecat
So there's a decent chance that the new Changeling book is not out by the time that Changeling kicks off.
This means that texts from their first releases may very well be updated, balanced, changed or even removed in the final release.

Pretend that book releases in January, what do we do with rule-changes that have an effect on the characters we made? Say for instance that a contract has a different effect. Is the player allowed to remove the contract if they don't like it anymore and get the EXP for it?

What about if a merit now costs less or more than it did in the original release? Perhaps the player should simply reduce/increase their current EXP with the cost difference.

Are there any plans for what the course of action will be? If not, there should be some cooked up!

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 8:56 am
by Mephi
http://wantonwicked.gamingsandbox.com/f ... 39&p=33223
WW5 is going to offer the “Big 5” factions (or venues) for play:
Changeling* and Fae-Touched
Mage and Sleepwalkers
Mortal/+**
Vampire and Ghouls
Werewolf and Wolf-blooded

* When approaching WW5, because The Onyx Path is producing a new system of books (Chronicles of Darkness aka 2E), we had made it a policy to only produce games where a published book is available to all players and staff. The Onyx Path anticipates publishing the rules for Changeling: the Lost 2E this fall, but there is always a chance for delay. However, because of the popularity of the Changeling venue and the anticipation of this publication date, we have decided to launch the Changeling venue with the advanced preview of the character creation rules that The Onyx Path has provided.

For this reason, we wanted to also notify our potential Changeling players of a rather major Caveat Emptor (Buyer Beware): When the book is published there may be changes to elements of character creation (for example, kith or seeming effects, changeling merits, fae-touched merits, etc.) If this is the case, your character will be modified to reflect the official, published rules. There will be no grandfathering.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 4:08 pm
by Sciencecat
Yeah, and that only says your character will be modified to reflect the published rules.

What does that mean?
If I bought a merit that cost 3 points and it now costs 4, should I reduce my current EXP to get to keep it? If it's the other way around, do I get some EXP?
What if I don't like the way a new contract works, can I simply remove it and get the EXP back?
If my kith is reworked and I don't like the new rules for it, can I change it?
If a new kith turns up (they've only released 75% of them) and I like one of the new ones better for my character idea, can I change it?

I already read the message you copy-pasted from the other topic, but it doesn't really answer what will actually be done. It just says that we won't get to keep the old rules, we'll adopt to the new ones. Which is what I would want them to do, I am fine with that idea, just it doesn't clarify what happens with left-over points or if players get a chance to cancel away something they would not have bought if it works in the updated way.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 7:47 pm
by JillA
We don't want to make any hard line statements about this because we don't know what --if any-- changes there will be. The XP costs aren't likely to change, but there may be changes in powers.
When the game is published we will be identifying what those changes are (if any) and calling them out as part of our change over. At that point we will determine how to address significant power changes. We're specifically being vague about this because we don't know what to expect.

And we don't want to promise a particular reaction that may not be necessary.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:30 am
by Sciencecat
JillA wrote: And we don't want to promise a particular reaction that may not be necessary.
Fair enough.
If I get to make a recommendation, I would suggest giving a few days leeway in between the release of the book and the implementation of the rules, so that people have time reading up on the differences.
I would even volunteer to help out by jotting down a list and put it on a thread somewhere on the forums.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:45 pm
by JillA
Sciencecat wrote:
JillA wrote: And we don't want to promise a particular reaction that may not be necessary.
Fair enough.
If I get to make a recommendation, I would suggest giving a few days leeway in between the release of the book and the implementation of the rules, so that people have time reading up on the differences.
I would even volunteer to help out by jotting down a list and put it on a thread somewhere on the forums.
This will certainly have to take place. Just like everyone else, our Rules Master and staff need to acquire and read to understand the changes as well as figure out how we'll communicate and implement any changes.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Mon Sep 12, 2016 5:20 pm
by LarryG
Not only this, but there is the possibility that things will either be nixed, or modified to the point that it becomes too different than it was expected. There is a -possibility- that it will result in a refund with a request to directly repurchase different items, should it come up. However, this will probably wind up being a case by case scenario, and the 5.0 Admins and storytellers will discuss this in the days to come.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:20 pm
by dave
So, a stupid question on something I saw today. The Ifrit Kith has pyrokinesis (with obvious good reason) can one also take telekinesis with good justification?

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:24 pm
by JillA
dave wrote:So, a stupid question on something I saw today. The Ifrit Kith has pyrokinesis (with obvious good reason) can one also take telekinesis with good justification?
Supernatural Merits (like telekinesis) from the Chronicles of Darkness book are not available to supernatural characters if this is to what you're referring. They must be human, per RAW.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Mon Sep 19, 2016 8:23 pm
by Ephsy
JillA wrote:
dave wrote:So, a stupid question on something I saw today. The Ifrit Kith has pyrokinesis (with obvious good reason) can one also take telekinesis with good justification?
Supernatural Merits (like telekinesis) from the Chronicles of Darkness book are not available to supernatural characters if this is to what you're referring. They must be human, per RAW.
Exceptions apply, as always.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:29 am
by JillA
No.
"Supernatural Merits
These Merits require the character remain human (nonsupernatural.) If the character becomes a vampire, ghoul, mage, or any other supernatural character type, these Merits disappear. Per the Sanctity of Merits (see p. 43), these Merits can be reallocated."

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 7:22 am
by Falco1029
No, he's right, there's exceptions. Vampires have the Coil of Zirnitra in the Ordo (Assuming that's still there when Secrets of the Covenants comes out) which lets them get those merits, several changeling kiths give them a supernatural merit specifically (But yeah, it wouldn't let you buy more), and I believe the devs confirmed that ANYONE with Mystery Cult Initiation in a cult that grants a superntural merit gets it, but I'd need to dig that up.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 8:26 am
by Sciencecat
Falco1029 wrote:I believe the devs confirmed that ANYONE with Mystery Cult Initiation in a cult that grants a superntural merit gets it, but I'd need to dig that up.
For what it is worth, I remember reading that too.

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:52 am
by Wolfpact
A lot of Kiths use them as bonuses, though, and the Dragons have a Coil for it as well.

There are in-game exceptions :)

Re: Changeling and rules changes

Posted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 12:02 pm
by JillA
I don't consider these exceptions so much as abilities that grant powers which present the same mechanic.

The distinction is that, for example, a Kith which grants the power of Telekinesis is a pre-requisite to obtaining access to that mechanic vs. a true exception which would be something like "It's not really clear in the text if this character is considered 'supernatural' or not, so we'll go ahead and say they aren't in terms of whether they can take this merit" or "so this kith allows THIS ability which is also a supernatural merit, so could they additionally take this OTHER ability which is a supernatural merit?" (which is the original question)

There are several instances where a similar or same mechanic is available to multiple character types, and there doesn't really need to be a different name for each of them. This may be a matter of perspective, but in terms of making exceptions to the RAW the answer is 'no'.

Make sense?