Conditions/Tilts: New Mechanics on the Block

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Scales
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Conditions/Tilts: New Mechanics on the Block

Post by Scales » Tue Jun 07, 2016 7:47 pm

Hey everyone Conditions are a new thing we'll be dealing with and I thought we might want a place to discuss some as well as 'tilts' that apply in combat. I wanted to start with more of a question. Do we want to use Beaten Down?

((I'm posting the text from the free rules update to avoid any problems.))
SpoilerShow
Optional Rule: Beaten Down & Surrender
As an optional rule, any character that takes more than
his Stamina in bashing damage or any amount of lethal
damage has had the fight knocked out of him. He has the
Beaten Down Tilt (see p. 206; a Tilt, remember, is just a
Condition that primarily affects combat). He must spend
a point of Willpower every time he wants to take a violent
action until the end of the fight. He can still apply Defense
against incoming attacks, can Dodge, and can run like hell,
but it takes a point of Willpower to swing or shoot back.
On the other hand, he can give in. Give the lunatic with
the butcher’s knife what she wants, whether that’s a bus ticket,
an apology, a bag of crack, or a promise to stay out of the
New Town after midnight. If you give in, you gain a point
of Willpower and take a Beat, but you take no more part in
the fight. If the other side wants to attack you, they’ve got
to spend a point of Willpower to do so and probably suffer
a breaking point. If some gangbangers want your truck and
your two buddies have surrendered for that sweet combination of Willpower and not getting hurt, that does mean that
they’re all coming for you. You could fight them off, but it’s
three against one. Or you could do the sensible thing and
remember that you get a lot of trucks in this life but only
one pine box. Once everyone on one side has surrendered,
the fight’s over.
These rules only apply to humans and human-like
creatures — anything that would incur a breaking point for
committing (or attempting) “murder.” Creatures that don’t
have a problem killing people in general can ignore surrender
without penalty and don’t have the fight beaten out of them
like normal folks.

BEATEN DOWN
The character has had the fight knocked out of him.
Effect: The character cannot take active part in the fight with
out extra effort. The player must spend a point of Willpower
each time he wants the character to take a violent action in the
fight. He can still run, Dodge, and apply Defense. If he wishes
to take another action, the Storyteller should judge whether the
action is aggressive enough to require the expenditure.

Causing the Tilt: The character suffers bashing damage in
excess of his Stamina or any amount of lethal damage.

Ending the Tilt: The character surrenders and gives the
aggressor what he wants. At this point, the character regains a
point of Willpower and takes a Beat, but can take no further
action in the fight. If the aggressor’s intent is to kill or injure
the character, obviously surrender isn’t a good option.
Now the odd thing is that this is referred to as an 'optional rule' but there are several powers in the new books like Mage The Awakening that refer to the beaten down tilt in the power itself. Such as when you dodge with mind armor you can commence a 'clash of wills' with the person that tried to attack you to cause them to become 'beaten down'.

So, shall we use it? Only use it when a power forces it? Use it all the time? Anyhow I look forward to hearing from other players about this tilt or other conditions they're curious about and hopefully a statement from the 5.0 team.

Pros
Can make combat less lethal and more rp heavy as it gives players/npcs a mechanical path of sorts to guide them to a resolution other then death.
Gives rewards even to the losers in the form of WP and XP and gives the winner what they wanted from the conflict.

Cons
The definition of 'human-like' is a little vague and needs to be defined. Does it apply to wolves, vamps, ect.
A character/npc whose already a underdog in a situation is swiftly going to be penalized further even if there's really no surrendering.
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Post by Ephsy » Wed Jun 08, 2016 5:47 am

Beaten down is only useful if the ultimate intent of the person isn't to kill the other party outright.

Sounds good to me.

Re: On cons - Uratha hybrid forms are explicitly stated to ignore that tilt.
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Mephi
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Post by Mephi » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:45 pm

Beaten Down tends to refer to mooks and red shirts that ultimately mean nothing. Non-dramatic personel. PCs are always dramatic personas.

I can't think of a situation where PCs should be considered Beat Down by default. Faceless NPCs, sure. PCs? Nope.
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Post by Ephsy » Thu Jun 09, 2016 5:56 pm

Mephi wrote:Beaten Down tends to refer to mooks and red shirts that ultimately mean nothing. Non-dramatic personel. PCs are always dramatic personas.

I can't think of a situation where PCs should be considered Beat Down by default. Faceless NPCs, sure. PCs? Nope.
What do you mean there when you say "by default"? There are consistent rules to applying it.
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Post by Mephi » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:12 pm

Ephsy wrote:What do you mean there when you say "by default"? There are consistent rules to applying it.
Well, for one, I can see some PCs willing volunteering it. It IS a Condition, after all, so free beat right there for Resolving it. Or maybe a StoryMaster will make a ruling based on the events of a single scene.

By default just means that we shouldn't assume that Beaten Down should apply to PCs, and that can only change with player/ST approval.
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Post by magus666 » Thu Jun 09, 2016 7:31 pm

I don't see anything anywhere about the Beaten Down Condition only referring to Mooks and NPCs. As far as I can tell, it is fully applicable to PCs. However, I do agree that it probably shouldn't be applied fiat to PCs. Note though that in the book in the combat chart it does say "Decide whether characters can surrender and become Beaten Down." That's probably a decision that STs and Players should make together at the start of a combat.

It should also be noted that I don't think that it was intended that the EXISTENCE of the Beaten Down Condition be considered optional, only its use in the specific situation mentioned in the "Optional Rule: Beaten Down & Surrender" section of the book(s) - that is, IF a character (PC or NPC) "takes more than his Stamina in bashing damage or any amount of lethal damage" AND is in a fight that he/she could reasonably surrender in (it notes that it does not apply if the opponent is obviously intending to hurt or kill you).
The Beaten Down Condition ITSELF is specifically noted as the result of other situations. For example -
"Mind Armor adds the character’s Mind Arcanum to her Defense. In addition, if the mage Dodges a target’s attack, the player can spend a point of Mana to cause the target to gain the Beaten Down Tilt." There is no notation here (or in the section on conditions in the books) that this Tilt/Condition is optional.
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Post by Ephsy » Thu Jun 09, 2016 8:04 pm

Mephi wrote:
Ephsy wrote:What do you mean there when you say "by default"? There are consistent rules to applying it.
Well, for one, I can see some PCs willing volunteering it. It IS a Condition, after all, so free beat right there for Resolving it. Or maybe a StoryMaster will make a ruling based on the events of a single scene.

By default just means that we shouldn't assume that Beaten Down should apply to PCs, and that can only change with player/ST approval.
Since when does someone needs anything besides lifting up their arms and stating explicitly that they're surrendering to this to be the case?

Good gooly, 1 beat! how utterly overpowered! Just like literally every single other condition!

Your concerns are exaggerated.
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Post by Mephi » Fri Jun 10, 2016 4:34 pm

My concerns? Ummmm..... ? What? I had concerns? *scratches head* I'm confused.
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Post by Fixxxer » Fri Jun 17, 2016 2:08 am

I could see it coming up in those all too common sparring sessions in gym rooms...sometimes things get outta hand...(personal experience).
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Post by magus666 » Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:55 pm

I could see it coming up in those all too common sparring sessions in gym rooms...sometimes things get outta hand...(personal experience).
Yeah, and in a situation like that, I'd probably say it was reasonable to apply it. If you just got clocked for more bashing than your stamina, or any amount of lethal damage, in a SPARRING session, it's not really unlikely that you ARE ready to say - WHOA! I think I'm done, you win. Unless of course, you really really want to show what a badass you are...and then you do have the option of spending WP to keep up the fight.
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