Sanctity of Merits and PvP

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magus666
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Re: Sanctity of Merits and PvP

Post by magus666 » Fri May 20, 2016 6:50 pm

So then....yes. Dots on your sheet are what matters and you can't die or lose anything unless YOU think you should. Cool factor. Ok.

However, those AREN'T the rules here (that you can't die unless you agree or the ST thinks you REALLY screwed up), and I think MOST players believe (or at least say they do) that RP and Story is more important than counting up the dots on your sheet. It's not the destination,it's the journey. If you have a few detours, and setbacks along the way, that's all part of the fun of the game, and makes it way more interesting than "well I got this, and I can't ever lose it, cuz thats the rulez!!".
Last edited by magus666 on Fri May 20, 2016 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Falco1029 » Fri May 20, 2016 6:59 pm

magus666 wrote:So then....yes. Dots on your sheet are what matters and you can't die or lose anything unless YOU think you should. Cool factor. Ok.
Summarizing in an insulting, inaccurate manner doesn't mean that's actually what I was saying, just to be clear.
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Post by Falco1029 » Fri May 20, 2016 7:04 pm

magus666 wrote: However, those AREN'T the rules here (that you can't die unless you agree or the ST thinks you REALLY screwed up), and I think MOST players believe (or at least say they do) that RP and Story is more important than counting up the dots on your sheet. It's not the destination,it's the journey. If you have a few detours, and setbacks along the way, that's all part of the fun of the game, and makes it way more interesting than "well I got this, and I can't ever lose it, cuz thats the rulez!!".
RP and story IS more important. So that's why I'm not getting why you're so stuck on why those things need to be lost to make that Rp and story fun. It goes both ways. I can see those as more important but still want to be able to have my character sheet advance. That doesn't make me all focused on "Cool factor" or "powerz" or whatever other insulting tag you want to put on it, it means I like growing my character mechanically as well as ICly.

I agree that setbacks and problems are fun, there's no argument there, but I don't see why that has to be an OOC thing, I think is the difference between the two viewpoints here. And I definitely don't think we need to make house rules to change it to be that way.
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Post by praetor » Fri May 20, 2016 7:07 pm

So that's why I'm not getting why you're so stuck on why those things need to be lost to make that Rp and story fun.
So that's why I'm not getting why you're so stuck on why those things need to be reimbursed when lost to make that Rp and story fun.

The point is that when something is LOST, it should STAY lost, until you work to get it back, not just transform into something else.
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Post by Falco1029 » Fri May 20, 2016 7:18 pm

praetor wrote:
So that's why I'm not getting why you're so stuck on why those things need to be lost to make that Rp and story fun.
So that's why I'm not getting why you're so stuck on why those things need to be reimbursed when lost to make that Rp and story fun.

The point is that when something is LOST, it should STAY lost, until you work to get it back, not just transform into something else.
I had already used that to turn it around by saying 'it goes both ways', to make a point along those lines. Flipping it again just reasserts your dissent, which has already been made clear.

Frankly, I don't think any new points are being made overall as it is, so it may just be time for me to bow out rather than letting the insulting manner in which the posts are growing get any worse. I put forth my stance and points and I don't think they're being refuted (on either side, really), just being disagreed with. So it's ultimately up to the admins/future rules mod of 5.0 at this point to decide if they agree a house rule for this is needed for what they have pictured for the game.
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Post by praetor » Fri May 20, 2016 7:20 pm

Okay simple question is this.

"Why should you get something in return for losing?"
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Post by magus666 » Fri May 20, 2016 7:22 pm

I agree that setbacks and problems are fun, there's no argument there, but I don't see why that has to be an OOC thing, I think is the difference between the two viewpoints here. And I definitely don't think we need to make house rules to change it to be that way.
it means I like growing my character mechanically as well as ICly.
And THAT is why I am "stuck" on it. Because the mechanics are meant to reflect the IC "reality". You want to see you character grow and develop, and from a MECHANICAL standpoint, that means XP and dots on your sheet. How then, can you deny that if you ALSO think that setbacks and problems are fun, that these should also NOT be reflected MECHANICALLY? If I want a Merit, I have to work towards it IC, and MECHANICALLY, I have to spend the XP for it. Why is it not completely logical then, that if I LOSE the Merit, that I ALSO lose the XP I spent to get it?

As I said before, I understand the Sanctity of Merits AS WRITTEN, because the games are written for a Table Top setting, in which almost any loss you suffer is going to be at the hands of the Storyteller, be it monsters, NPCs, whatever. And the Storyteller, as the "God" of the setting, can make those monsters, NPCs or other threats as effective as they choose. So it would be unfair to the players to say...well the Giant Monster I just placed in game ate all your Retainers...tough luck, you're out all those XP. Also, the PC's have no RECOURSE against the Storyteller. If they take revenge on an NPC, that's all for the better...and the ST can, again, make the NPC as powerful as they like, CHOOSING whether or not the PC's actions are going to be effective, and what will happen next. The Storyteller in NOT competing (or at least, SHOULDN'T be) with the players. Furthermore, the ST GAVE those merits (or rather, allowed the player to spend his XP on them) in the first place.

In the chat setting, especially in a PvP situation, none of this is true. So while you can defend the Rules as Written all you like, that does NOT mean that they are fully applicable to what WE are doing with them, or cover all the situations appropriately.
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Post by Wolfpact » Fri May 20, 2016 10:16 pm

The only people in favor of this are PvP trolls and masochists.

See, insulting summations work both ways.

This is an unnecessary house rule, to appease a loonie fringe and a minority prone to making site disharmony, and the admins have expressed a desire to keep house rules down.

So, time to let it go. It's not a thing that is popularly wanted.
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Post by magus666 » Sat May 21, 2016 12:41 am

They might if they had a basis in fact. Saying - I dont want this, so neither does anyone else, and I don't like anyone who does, isn't fact, or even supported opinion. It is however, a great basis for getting put on an ignore list.
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Post by Ephsy » Sat May 21, 2016 1:04 am

You know what PVP is? Is a pain in the collective ass of the staff. Trust me, I've tried it. The lengths they will go to avoid it ranging from simply ignoring your requests to pursue it in any covert fashion, to outright null scenes.

Why? Because it escalates. And then the game isn't about whatever plot the ST drops, it's about the third revenge PC being sanctioned to counter some other asshole exclusively because they scored 8 successes in a surprise aggravated attack on your previous PC, because they got bored in a massive venue-wide scene from reading at all the fashion statement entrance/posts.
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Post by TLotts » Sat May 21, 2016 1:08 am

I'm sorry, does your opinion make it a thing that isn't popularly wanted? So far, I've seen equal amounts of discussion for and against. I am not a troll, or a masochist, part of a loonie fringe or prone to promoting disharmony. I think it is a rule that would helpful to prevent the kind of disharmony that can come from not having proper rules in place for likely situations. The admins don't want unnecessary house rules, that doesn't mean that useful ones shouldn't be considered. The only real trolling I have seen has come from you, and I agree that if you have nothing useful to add to the topic, it's best just to ignore you in the future.
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Post by NickP » Sat May 21, 2016 1:53 am

I havent commented on this topic before but now that its gotten to the rediculous name calling stage I wanted to put in a couple words before the admins shut it off.

I can see both sides of the argument. We dont want too many unneeded house rules and we dont want to promote disharmony in the game by encouraging player against player grudges.

The other side is that pvp situations are going to happen and we need to have enough rules to cover them resonably.

IMHO the side in favor of a house rule made better argument to why it would be helpful, rather than the side against it. I see characters competing all the time and it should even probably be more between different factions and groups than it is between different orders, different courts, different tribes, different venues, different politics. PvP doesnt have to be with knives or guns. Mostly it shouldnt be. I like to play social characters myself and giving them some more bite in their actions along with social maneuvering will make them a lot more interesting to play.
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Post by Wolfpact » Sat May 21, 2016 11:59 am

All putting this through willachieve is making people buy into the setting less. Fewer Allies, Contacts, and the like, to close off weaknesses and sources of permanent XP loss (*never* a good decision).

It's an invitation for murder hobos, and gives fewer levers for STs to manipulate, all to appease a disruptive minority.

It basically says, alongside the usual poor reaction to PC-on-PC social conflict, "do not play a social character. The rules are out to screw you in multiple ways".
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Post by Hail Satan » Sat May 21, 2016 12:48 pm

Voidoblivion wrote: WoD is not about sheet growth. if you want sheet growth play hack n slash games like DnD, Rifts, or Cyber Punk. What makes WoD chat or LARP great is the intrigue. People who are only focused on the sheet growth has no true understanding of the story and what makes it so enjoyable to play.
It would be great if we could have a discussion on the future policies of the Wanton Wicked game and avoid "You're playing the game wrong, go play something else"
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Post by magus666 » Sat May 21, 2016 1:09 pm

It would be great if we could have a discussion on the future policies of the Wanton Wicked game and avoid "You're playing the game wrong, go play something else"
Yes it would. There are many ways to play the game, and there is no "right or wrong" way, only what each player finds fun and enjoyable. The Golden Rule of the WoD games, and, in fact, almost all RPGs, has always been, the rules are guidelines. If they don't work the way you like in your game, or for whatever reason, change them to fit. This discussion started as a topic that clearly some players think would be a good idea, and make their way of playing more enjoyable. Certainly no one was going to force other PCs into PvP situation...in fact, I think (I could be wrong) that there is a current house rule (Oh no! A house rule!!) that says that any PvP situation has to be mutually agreed on by the players. If you enjoy the satisfactory feeling of having lots of dots on your sheet then no one is going to force you into a situation where you have to lose them (although I do still believe that if you take on IC visable positions of power, you are tacitly agreeing that other PCs may try to dislodge you). Needless to say, if you DO use your dots on your sheet to influence or affect another PC against their will, you have agreed, since that is what PvP means. If one player used their Status or other position to force another PC to do something, uses their Allies to block the use of a merit, uses abilities to Socially Maneuver another PC, etc....they have initiated a PvP situation. If dice need to be rolled between two players...its a PvP.
PvP can be broadly used to describe any game, or aspect of a game, where players compete against each other.
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On the other hand, we also seem to have players who think that everyone must play the game their way, or else they are wrong, trolls, masochists, or something. Fortunately, with a large player base, we can all play the game, and don't actually have to play with those people if we choose not to.
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