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A Start to Conversation

Post by BloodyQuill » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:55 am

Hi folks I decided to make this post to try and clear the air and maybe give some direction to the other posts I've seen and my own thoughts and feelings of everything that's happened and is going on.
I understand why the thread was closed we went far off topic in regards to the house rule hence why I'm making a new post.
So here's what I've been able to gather and distill. People are upset in all corners and it's mostly can be summed up by one thing - unfairness. There's alot to unpack and muddle through but I think that's at the heart of it.

When we all get together to play a game, any game, everyone can expects two thing. One that we'll have fun and everyone will play by the rules.
Unfortunately alot of us, myself included, are feeling like this contract has been broken by one or more people. And man do we like to jump on injustice.

There's a few examples of these perceived injustices like players being punished for the same thing but with wildly varying punishments. (Like the TrueFae thing. In all my time on Wanton every time a staffer was banned it was only on their ST account and not their player account. Let alone the fact that TrueFae never had a PPS before).

There is also the idea of incestuous insider trading of favors among the staff (Im looking at things like Kota returning to the game and within less than 60 days bumping their Gnosis from 3 to 5 and their Fate from 3 to 5 with the key required scenes being run by their IC wife).

My own main complaints have to do with the Staff trying to police the internet. It's insane to me to try and tell players (and staff) what they can and can't say off the site. Imagine if Facebook tried to do this? Issuing account bans or suspensions for supporting or complaining about a politician? More over these applications and sites already have their own tools and terms of service it's not Wantons job to 'protect' users of that site. If someone is harassing me on Discord I can block and/or report them to Discord. They don't need a PPS on Wanton. Besides let's face it we've all been assholes or said things we didn't mean among friends. (I'm definitely no angel in this).

Anyways like I said most of us (players especially, which are also staff) complain that things aren't fair for a bunch of reasons. On the other side of the coin are Staff that complain the players don't appreciate them, respect them and are just downright mean to them. It really sucks to be staff sometimes. Now I know we've been told we need to appreciate staff at face value for dedicating their time to running a game but well to be frank it just doesn't work anymore. The majority of players have been burned by just putting blind faith into staff. Trust and respect need to be earn (by both sides actually).

I think a part of the problem is that Staff see themselves above players a lot of the time but in truth the only power they have over a player is to decide if they can play in their game. That's it. It's frequently forgotten that we need both a staff and player base to play this game. Please for the love of it remember we're equals.

For the above I am deeply worries that things have gotten worse with the current Staff treating their role as if the game is a business but if that's true then things are even worse. What kind of business ignores or belittles it's customers? (See the post comparing Staff to HR that backs up this current view).
Finally I think most of us think the idea of being punished for such vague thing like "Whisper Campaign", "White Knighting" or "Cat fishing" is absurd and well unjust. It's a catch all way to punish someone you just don't like for maybe or maybe not saying something unkind or mean about the staff. Guess what? If we feel like we have to talk in backrooms about how we feel then of course it'll be in whispers.

Note: Originally (when 4.0 started) Whisper Campaigns was described as purposefully organizing a group of people to antagonize and harass target person. The dictionary says harassment is using aggressive pressure or intimidation. If you have to go and dig for what people are saying about you... I don't think that counts.
Now why did I post this here? I have a few reasons chiefly that this is something that should be discussed openly.
I have another reason that I think might be mirrored by a few players. We've been asked to talk to the staff 'directly' and by that they mean privately. The problem is that these get sweeped under the rug and ignored. Worse if they aren't the rest of the player base isn't blessed with any rationale or have any idea it happened.
Hell the player of Scales approached the Staff as they were asked to, privately but was treated with paranoia, hostility and to top it off a PPS for doing what he was asked. (Below are the logs of these interactions.) Even worse he has yet to receive any reply of any kind and it's been well over three weeks.

Scales Logs: (Note Scales lost the first bit of the log where he said something not so nice like "Well I guess your letting the insane run the asylum" or something to that effect. Becca didn't respond for sometime which is why Scales didn't have that portion of the log)
[17:53:51] BeccaH: HI there.
[17:53:58] BeccaH: I did not realize I was still loggedin.
[17:54:25] BeccaH: firstoff - the fact that you heard about this through other than an official source tells me that the whispering went on way deep, and is still going on.
[17:54:41] BeccaH: Second, I have been investigating this entire thing for about 3 weeks. What i found was a disturbing pattern of behavior
[17:54:56] BeccaH: third, theperson who made the COI complaint did not disclose her own PC's benefit in the entire thing.
[17:55:35] BeccaH: Fourth - The person who has banned has harassed many people on staff via rallying the white knights - which is a form of bullying - and most of it has been done via voice, which is notorously hard to prove as no one sits there wtih a voice recorder
[17:56:01] BeccaH: Fifth - the person who was banned had already had their behavior noted as problematic by the owners of the site. Before I came ons taff.
[17:56:09] BeccaH: I appreciate you reachign out to me to get my side of thigns.
[17:56:29] BeccaH: I need to protect my people from vicious behavior, staff and players alike.I know it feels awful, but that is exactly what I have done.
[17:57:28] BeccaH: Because no one obviousy cheated- and the very fact that you say that to me, tells me that someone else had sourced you the information before it came to me. Spreading rumors about someoen is the very definition of a whisper campaign. IT's not Ok, it's not cool.
[17:57:35] BeccaH: Also. I'm really sorry someone told you to fuck off.
[18:06:21] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I'm collecting what information I have on the affair and will be composing a forum post about it. I would love to have you response once it's up as this whole thing has emotions very high and I think everyone being very open about it all would be great.
[18:06:35] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: Especially if you have evidence of those misdoings. Just because there's a lot of stories going around.
[18:07:02] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I decided It'd be best for my to do this as I dont have a stake in the events and have experience in this sorta stuff irl so it's no big deal.
[18:07:52] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: Normally I understand the need for some secrecy but given the 'intensity' of all of this and the possibility of conspiracy at the high levels of staff I believe it's important.
[18:07:44] BeccaH: This isthe thing.
[18:07:49] BeccaH: And this is why I am going to say no.
[18:08:36] BeccaH: We've banned a lot of people in the past for soind things. But in this instance, it's just proof to me tha tI did correctly, and that the rumors, which are now being spread against me, and have been since I disagreed with her position, are goin gto get worse. I'm not on trial. No one is on trial. This is a private game site, not a court of law.
[18:09:06] BeccaH: You're welcome to send in feedback. I will not be posting beyond that, as it is my job to keep things confidential, especially when people's charcters were being defamed offsite.
[18:09:30] BeccaH: not characters. players, sorry.
[18:10:04] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: Well I've collected logs, documents, and sources from those involved that contradict your statements. Are you not going to allow me to post them for you and others involved to respond to?
[18:10:14] BeccaH: This was not a fiat action by me, the owners did this.
[18:10:42] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: Can you put me in contact with them?
[18:10:58] BeccaH: I'm not going to post people's personal facebook conversations. You can post, but you won't like my reply.
[18:11:04] BeccaH: They're on the site.
[18:11:18] BeccaH: Because this again is a case of rallying the white knights, and PPsable by me.
[18:11:22] BeccaH: Please, stop.
[18:12:02] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I'm not going to be posting this as having any position on the issue. I just want to either find out if there is or was a conspiracy or put it to rest that there wasn't.
[18:12:28] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: There are too many people making these accusations I feel to ignore the matter.
[18:12:26] BeccaH: then ask Jeff and Jill.
[18:12:33] BeccaH: I don't see why anyone is talking conspiracy.
[18:12:50] BeccaH: fpm JillA or JeffV. Again, they're on the site.
[18:13:15] BeccaH: But just posting that there is a conspiracy theory, which I feel is an attempt to harass me, without submitting feedback first is really unacceptable.
[18:14:32] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: Are you going to release your investigation against those involved on your own?
[18:15:23] BeccaH: I ahve released it to the site owners as is standard policy when I need to have members of staff removed.
[18:17:15] BeccaH: I would suggest that you sent your findings to jeff and jill first.
[18:21:51] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I'll be careful in my wording, conspiracy is perhaps a strong word. But given the strong opposition and tempers I think this is worthwhile to look into.
[18:22:15] BeccaH: IF you're wondering whether or not I want another administrator with me, the answer is a strong yes.
[18:22:37] BeccaH: but I need one who will protect staff members impartially from the poor behavior of other staff.
[18:22:50] BeccaH: please understand. This was not just me flexing my muscles.
[18:23:00] BeccaH: Have a nice night.
[18:23:24] BeccaH: you can also send your FPm to WW5 Administrators, and I will forward it on.
[18:23:47] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I believe there is corruption in your staff I will be happy to be proved wrong and I'm going to give you a chance to do so.
[18:24:29] BeccaH: I believe my staff are honest and good people, and I am happy to invite you to play here if you feel it is worthwhile in your time.
[18:24:49] BeccaH: This isn't a court of law. IF I feel my staff are being harassed, I will act to protect them.
[18:25:26] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: IF that is true what can I possibly find out or expose?
[18:25:48] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: All information was given to me voluntarily and without coercian by concerned players.
[18:26:03] BeccaH: And if it's not true then why would you spend your time here?
[18:26:15] BeccaH: I mean, seriously. This is a game.
[18:26:22] BeccaH: No one is getting paid to be here.
[18:26:41] BeccaH: and I will not be put on trial.
[18:26:50] BeccaH: send your concerns to the site owners.
[18:29:43] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: Is that supposition an admission of some wrong doing by staff?
[18:29:43] BeccaH: This user is logged out.
[18:40:13] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: Is my curiosity threatening? I was informed by others I was pps'. Why didn't you do so directly?
[18:41:46] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: In the staff guide it states that a player has to be informed of those kind of things.
[18:42:10] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: Would you like to give comment? I'll be including this event in my letter.
[18:43:12] BeccaH: I have made my statement to you, and further conversation with me I will be construing as adversarial in nature. I did not PPS you. Are you in the staff guide? Is someoen sharing it with you? have you been on staff before?
[18:43:39] BeccaH: Because now, I do consider this harassment. If you'd like to step into my office, I'll go ahead and give you an official warning.
[18:44:06] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I cannot reveal my sources as those involved are either afraid of you and others or do not wish to be victims of abuse.
[18:44:52] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I don't believe I've been anything but polite in my curiousity. You're the face of this website and I feel should be open to some scrutiny.
[18:46:17] BeccaH: That's fine. You don't have to. but you're still getting an official warning now.
[18:46:25] BeccaH: You need to stop harassign me for doing my job. I'm sorry you disagree.
[18:46:47] BeccaH: If you feel I am being abusive, your participation here is voluntary.
[18:47:17] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: Is your statement then that you and other staff are beyond reproach and need not be held accountable for your decision or actions on this website?
[18:47:30] BeccaH: Is your statement that you feel harassing people is Ok?
[18:47:59] BeccaH: You need to stop. I have given you instructions on how to proceed fairly.
[18:48:25] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I'd merely like to include your comments in my letter.
[18:48:45] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I don't want to misquote you or make assumption.
[18:50:03] BeccaH: Alright, then include me. You are attempting to intimidate me when I am citing site policy. You are continuing to do so, failing to disclose who is feeding you confidential site policy in an attempt to harass, intimidate, and threaten me. I do not appreciate it. I have dealt with you fairly and politely. If you persist in being intimidating, harassing and otherwise threatening, I will have no choice but to take corrective action. This is an official warning.
[18:51:02] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: I'll be sure to quote that, thank you.
[18:54:21] BeccaH: Good .Be sure to include in it the following information: that you approached someoene else about this, they informed you of an opinion you disagreed with, so you reported them to me, as them telling you to f@# off. Ironically, you only cited their behavior, rather than your saying all sorts of foul things.
[18:55:10] Nixie -Rogue- Roth: What sorts of foul things did I say? I think I've been cordial.
[18:55:23] BeccaH: Now, as I have no further statements to make to you, and this conversation is recorded int he staff log for everyone to see, have a nice night. This is a warning.
Of course it's kinda silly to just send his complaint to the Admins... She'd be reviewing the very complaint against her. He CCed Jeff and Jill as well.
Below is the email he sent to Jeff and Jill.
Dear, Jeff

Hello I've been a long time player on your game Wanton Wicked and unfortunately I feel I need to go beyond the typical chain of command because this e-mail concerns the people that are running the game for you. I apologize for having to bring such a sordid affair to you considering your generosity in hosting this place for us. But I feel it's needed for the health of the wonderful community that you've created.

I'm going to include the conversation I've had with your Admin Becca as well as several documents that illicit suspicion over several staff members and the possibility of collusion or even conspiracy towards other players and staff members which is a somewhat alarming possibility I'm sure you'd agree. I'll give you what information and evidence I have and would like your approval to discuss this on the forums as I was denied that ability previously by Becca. I will for now conform to her demands but I hope that you'll share my compassion for those that appear to of been wronged. Below is what I'd like to post publicly if you'd allow it, it is my desire to keep the conversation level-headed and construction for the future of your site and our enjoyment of it.

To preface I would like to make my intentions clear. I am not involved in it and though it has not directly affected me

Recently TrueFae and William were removed from staff at least one was also banned others were removed for chat or silenced, there will undoubtedly be further fallout that has yet to come as well, I was told this take this to the forums. The stories circulating from this event are many but I will try to collect the main concerns involved as I feel like it's important for us to know the details given the severity. Especially since others have tried to silence me or told me to 'go fuck myself' for inquiring.

Kota and Justicepaw are both staff members. Truefae accused them of cheating after Kota ran a scene for justicepaw from which they both gained benefits on their respective mage characters. After these events I was informed there was a campaign to find reasons to have TrueFae to be removed, a conspiracy if you will.

There have been reports of negative bias concerns from those who would rather remain anonymous as well that was involved in this affair in some fashion to which I am not at liberty to go into detail about but feel the concerns are enough to bear mentioning in this post for awareness' sake.

Included in Truefaes ban was accusations of things that do not even involve the game on which we play, the enforcing of these things here is somewhat dubious and questionable. Is it our business as gamers?

I would appreciate evidence, transparency, and candid talk on this event from staff. I think it would aid in the over all health of the site. This event feels so rather 'intense' that I think public discourse is the only reasonable solution.

The following documents were recovered by now former staff members and others who are too afraid of your current administration. It highlights strange investigations and evidence of a 'witch hunt' of sorts as well as the possibility of falsified interviews and skirting of site policies.

In closing I would just like to say that It's not my desire to have a witch hunt or invoke hate for anyone. This is if nothing else a impassioned plea. Ours is a somewhat niche hobby with not a ton of places to turn to indulge it. My only agenda is to make this a place where all of us can play and have fun free of the worry of conspiracy or possibility of tyrants. To many things have become personal or discussed behind closed doors in secrets meetings for any of us to feel confident in the sites leadership. I've already been warned by Becca in my pursuit of this but I can't just let it go I feel that I've been , to many people I consider friends and level-headed confidants have come to me to be their advocate because they're too scared or too upset to do anything. I hope that this doesn't result in my ban but even if it does I think it's a worthwhile pursuit if only to know that I tried to save something I love.
The fact that the player has yet to receive any sort of answer after nearly a month is telling.
If this post mirrors or strike a chord with you feel free to say so.
P.S. I know this post has no suggestions for improvement but that's because the only solution I can propose probably wouldn't be appreciated.
P.P.S I love Wanton or at least it's potential of what it can be. I hope we can make it into something awesome by having an earnest conversation.
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Post by Zerd » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:22 am

I'm going to go ahead and add my own little current run in with the people whom are supposed to be here for us. It only echos the above and how threats are used to keep players from having a say in the game they make happen.
Player input
Request Type:
Request Status:
Created On
2018-03-11 13:27:20
Updated On
2018-03-11 15:34:57
So, players voice their concerns in a public forum, because that is what they are here for, and get shut down. How is that at all living up to what your duties are supposed to be preforming. All it does is give people more reason to have issues with the staff and a very deep distrust and dislike in them. If anything it shows a complete lack of respect to the players. It resounds with ego and selfrichiousness.

I agree that Trishs part in all of that should have just been moved to a more private setting. But basically telling players oh damn well we don’t care what you think, this is what will be.. That’s just wrong. Sadly we have seen this type of behavior from staff in the past as well, the end result being a complete fuckover of an entire venue. As they made it their intention to set it up so that the venue would be removed from the site. That is exactly what this looks like as well, only it dramatically affects every venue and a very large part of the game.

Continuing to refuse to acknowledge what the players want or would like to see only drags the site down more., and if the behavior continues they the staff/people involved only have themselves to blame for destroying what was once a great game.

BeccaH wrote on 03/11/2018 15:34:57
Thank you for using the Admin feedback. That is what it is there for.

I advise you to read the Terms of Service where it talks about how to give feedback. It does not say 'Start a thread full of anger towards the staff, attack them personally, and get a lynch mob going." It does say "Give feedback to the admin." which yu have done, so I am answering.

The thread itself, its tone, its comment, and all, was very hostile towards staff.We are here, volunterring our time, to try to let people have fun. We don't get paid. We have put in a lot of effort - countelss hours- to try to bring people enjoyment, and be fair to all our players. The thread, which you participated in, and which you were a main instigator for, was nothing short of trying to discredit the staff by "rallyiing the white knights" which is, in fact, a terms of service violation.

Please take this into consideration before participating in such an activity again. Consequences will be forthcoming, and would have been, regardless of this email that you sent in.

The players were heard, but the way to get a response is to use the request system. I would caution anyone who seeks a forum flame war to cease and desist in the future.
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Post by GrayEyedDevil2154 » Mon Mar 12, 2018 8:45 am

I mean... White Knighting is usually the act of defending someone. Not a group of people collectively agreeing that stuff sucks.
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Post by Kimura » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:03 pm

You know what my biggest problem with wanton is?

The constant fucking whingeing
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Post by Scarecrow » Mon Mar 12, 2018 12:32 pm

I don't understand the point or intent of this thread. Nor where this sudden Us vs. Them mentality came from. Nor where the issue of the banning of this person or that person for whatever reason. Or the issue of who has what. It's irrelevant.

The initial issue, and the more important one, which doesn't even matter anymore until the staff decides to release whatever details they're going to release as the issue has been beaten to death, is the issue of the staff pushing more rules on us which will do little more than slow down an already clogged and slowed to a crawl system when there's already an overburdened staff.

At some point, we're all going to have to take a beat. Take a breath. Smoke a cigarette and remember, this is a game. And, to be blunt, we don't have a RIGHT to be here. This is a privilege, granted to us by Jeff so that we have a place to indulge this hobby. He can flip a switch tomorrow and turn it off, and none of us are entitled to any form of explanation as to why. That, I think, is the main issue here. Entitlement. And it's gotten way, way, way out of control.

Are there issues? Yes. Nobody is denying that. But take a minute and remember, we're all players. And this level of whining, complaining, and finger pointing is exactly what destroys the hobby for everyone. So chill.
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Post by Hamster » Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:19 pm

This isn't just whining, this is people voicing their concern, when the feedback systems haven't been working. This is the next option. Now, I do want to unpack a few things said here. I think i more than earned the RIGHT to play on this site, i worked my tail bone off to help run plot. Yes, i didn't run for every single venue, I'm sorry, i'm not the next messiah, there are limits to what i can do. But a large part of why I stepped down, was because i was doing too much work for the site with everything in my life blowing up. So no, i'm sorry, this isn't just players whining, this is people who have put in work into this site feeling this is the only way to speak up.

And you might ask why i'm speaking if i'm not going to play, because my friends play, and they keep getting burned, i hear about it, I'm listening, i'm keeping an eye out, because i want this place to thrive, I didn't pour my SOUL into this site only for it to burn in the same dumpster fire as other places i've worked. i'm sick of watching stuff i work hard on go up in flames despite my hardwork, so by far, I do not wanton wicked to die, i want it to friggin thrive. I'm speaking because of that, and because i'm not afraid of any retaliation, i'm not afraid of being banned, I will attempt to be kind, and courtoues, and polite, i am not calling anyone a dummy or talking negatively about ANY staff member, they are working hard, I just believe they are making the wrong calls, and I might be wrong, By all means, PROVE ME WRONG, but I'm sick of not knowing who is telling me the truth, so I'm going by who can give me the proof.

As for policing the internet, I was to recieve a one month ban for venting my frustations about my interactions with staff on a private discord channel, that ban was not issued because I took a month off anyway, and came back under another name, aka YinandYang, partly because i was afraid i would be banned for venting my emotions to my friends. Yeah, I was frustated about how i was treated by my fellow staff members at the time, there was a lot that happened, and some of it was on my end, I will admit that I was short, but losing family can screw a girl up. But that isn't the point, the point is i was going to get in trouble for "Whisper Campaigning" because i vented my frustations, Later I was told, that the source they recieved did not inform them where this venting happened, but to me that screams telling me something else to keep me quiet, or someone didn't do enough investigation.

And your right, this is a game, this is a place to have fun, so why is it seeming like the fun is being sucked out, why are we being pushed to do more paperwork, why are people walking away from scenes feeling like it was lackluster, why is the numbers of playerd rapidly dropping, there's questions that need answering. Yeah, staff is understaffed, it has been for months, but it's never been THIS bad, so maybe its time for staff to build some bridges between the groups that feel they've been burned, maybe it's time to look towards a better future, for EVERYONE, i speak out hoping that those on staff who actually listen, will hear me, and will know that i am wanting the best for this site, and hell, if it meant getting stuff BACK on track, I would help out again. IN a heartbeat. i want everyone to have fun, it's why I tried to make stuff inclusive, its why I had built up multiple crossover metaplots to run after i ran stuff for wolf and vampire, I was trying my best ot please everyone, it's what i do.

SIncerly, Hamster, DalH, YinandYang, and formely the staff Creampuff.

PS: If anyone feels attacked by this, I'm sorry, i'm speaking right from the heart, and i don't mean ANYTHING as an attack.
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Post by LiamH » Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:44 pm

When I left, it was because I didn't like the direction things were heading in. I always wanted an open atmosphere where we worked together to create a great site. There's a a few billion different people on this planet, and we're all unique in our own way. There's no one RIGHT way to enjoy this hobby. No one is really better than anyone else, and I always said we're all just players. Even staff. I'd love to come back, but the atmosphere of the chat just isn't something I can get behind. But I have put years of my life into this site, so I feel like I should say something.

Until Jeff himself posts and says he supports the things that are going on, I don't think we can really use the excuse that "This is Jeff's chat, his way or the highway" because our issues aren't with Jeff.

Wanting to be treated fairly and kindly does not make someone entitled. Voicing concerns over being treated harshly and being insulted by people that are no better than you is not "whining."

This hobby is dying, that is correct. So now more than ever we need to be accepting of all different types of people and work together to keep the things we enjoy alive. Not push people out.

I may not be here anymore as a player, but my friends are. People I still care for, even if I can't bring myself to talk to them anymore. And I want them to have a good home.
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Post by JeffV » Mon Mar 12, 2018 11:44 pm

"This hobby is dying"? RPG? Chat Gaming? Not sure which you're meaning... if it's RPGs, that's definitely not true. If Chat Games, that's much more arguable and probably is more of a matter of taking a new form.

As for the issues of the site, I am very concerned that a number of people are using this platform as a way to conduct attacks on each other and not dealing with each other like adults and letting things get to a place where ultimately hard decisions are having to be made because each side is so deeply entrenched.

This game and site is meant to be a place where people can have fun. If that goal is not being met to the greatest effect possible, then that questions the purpose of the site and I can focus my efforts in other areas. I am working with the staff more directly recently to try to provide a positive direction for things to go, but I am just one person and can only solve so many problems. The threat to shut down the site only goes so far, and I'm certain there are people out there that would (secretly) be happy for me to do that for whatever reasons they may have. To that end, I'm not threatening to shut down the site, but there are improvements to be made in multiple areas of the game and I want to try to work on an organizational level to help bring greater improvements to the site.

I know that not everyone may agree with the ultimate shape that the game may take, and I can only hope that people can accept that an honest best effort was taken, even if it wasn't all of the choices that they would have made.
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Location: California
My Vampire: Markus Kincaid

Post by Regentwill » Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:39 am

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I (LiamH) said this hobby is dying, I meant online chats. Though, surprisingly, there is another kind of online system that is popular. But chats in general have been dying out for a long time. Wanwic has always been my favorite since I cam here quite a few years ago, and I'd hope it sticks around for some time no matter how it manages to do so.

Thanks for taking the time to respond, Jeff, I know you are super busy. But it means a lot.
Player of:
Markus the WIZARD
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